I'm going to play interviewer and my friend
is going to talk about a near-death experience that she had in
That was 1961. I'd been sitting there thinking about it when it
was and it had to be 61.
Do you remember the date?
I don't. I remember that it was like maybe July or August.
What were the circumstances? What led up
OK. First of all in 61 I went to the Middle East. I married an
Arab, a Palestinian actually, which made it worse in view of the
government. You see what I mean? I made myself an instant criminal.
Now I'm a suspicious person. I went over then, and that was like
2 years after the US had invaded Lebanon. And that's where I was.
I went to Lebanon, and Americans in general were not welcomed at
that time. They were real hot about that invasion. So I was having
kind of a rough time. One of the first things that hit me was, that
I hadn't thought about when I first went over, but I didn't know
anybody over there. So everybody we knew collectively between the
two of us was HIS friend. So that put me in a bad scene, you know.
And I went into culture shock, so to speak. If you are not familiar
with the concept; that is when basically everything about the place
you're in is unfamiliar and therefore you take a negative view of
anything that you come up against, and you're uncomfortable. It's
a familiar phenomenon in places like the Middle East where you have
North American tourists landing into a culture that is totally different.
They don't handle it well. I was into the culture shock bit.
Do you speak Arabic?
No. I spoke some words, and I could have picked it up rather easily,
except my husband was a perfect Arab, jealous to the max. Nobody
was going to teach me anything but him, you know, and then he failed
to teach me anything, of course. So, but anyway, I made some Arab
friends. I met some totally Moslem people. In other words, Moslems
the way they like to see themselves, and not the way we see them
on the TV screen screaming and shooting people.
I contracted jaundice, and to the Americans jaundice was just a
violent form of hepatitis. But, in many places of the world if you
get jaundice, as far as they're concerned, you're terminal, right
off the bat. And they get very bad jaundice over there in the Middle
East, and they get it easily. I decided not really to protect myself
against it because I was going to live there forever. So, I said,
" I am not going to live in a bubble. I am not going to have
nets on me every time I touch something." You know, this kind
of stuff. I ate the food right off the streets that they sold in
the booths, drank the water and everything. I said, "If I'm
going to get it, let's get it over with." So, I got it.
So there I am. The way it hit me was, basically I got very weak.
And I get very, very bored very easily, anyhow. Just lying there
not being able to do anything is a total drag. Lying in bed, stare
at the ceiling. If you try to sit up, you pass out. Lovely. OK.
So I'm lying in bed, and my husband was a would-be producer. He's
running around doing his rehearsals and what not, and the little
starlets, and this bit and the other. And my mind was going crazy
in the early stages of the disease, as to what's going on out there.
I was really helped along by one of the actors who came up and told
me want was going on out there. Right? He's catting around with
all of these actresses, and this kind stuff, and it makes me feel
real good. And then he turns around and makes a pass at me. Now
you've got to figure out that this girl lost 25 percent of her body
weight. She's lying in bed. She's turning yellow. She's sweating
up a storm, can't sit up without passing out, and he makes a pass
at me, you know. (Laughing uncomfortably) That has got to be one
of the strangest experiences of my life! I said, "What the
hell?" So, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Later on
I laughed about it. It was funny to me when I thought about it.
But at the time, I was just down generally about everything, and
this just made it worse, of course.
I'm lying there, and somebody came around who was a doctor, and
he was supposed to treat me. He told me that if I couldn't get myself
to eat steaks, I was going to die. Right? I couldn't keep water
down, let alone eat steaks. They're trying to get iron into my system
is the basic notion. So, I was declared terminal. And I'm lying
there and looking at the doctor and I'm going, in my mind, I didn't
say anything to him, I just let him make his pronouncements and
everything, "and I'm going to be here after you're gone."
I just knew I was not going to be going anywhere. OK?
But, in the whole boredom of that thing, one time I was lying there
in the afternoon. There was nobody around at all, no visitors, no
nothing. I'm staring at the ceiling, can't sit up, and I realize
that I really don't care if I pass on right now or not. I realized
that I really didn't care if I died or not, and I started thinking
about it. I was over there. I didn't get along with my parents.
My mother and I had a fighting relationship my whole life, all of
this stuff. So, if I died over there it was just fine. I had nothing
to worry about what the family was going to do, or anything like
that. And I had nothing going over here that I wanted to come back
I must have been in stages of passing out or something, you know,
because I couldn't move and I thought I was going to go completely
kaput. And that's when I had the NDE, because what I got was that
tunnel. I saw the tunnel that looked like the one that they used
in Eiger Sanction. That's the only thing that is really similar
What's Eiger Sanction?
Eiger Sanction is a Clint Eastwood movie in which they built what
was supposed to be an ice tunnel when they were in a cave. The Eiger
is a mountain. He was supposed to be a mountain climber. OK? And
they're in the snow cave looking out, and there is a storm, and
you have got all of this whipping around of the snow, and white,
and everything. You have no color and no distinction of anything.
You just have motion.
So, I start going up this tunnel, and I get to what's the end of
it, to me, the end of the tunnel, after which there is nothing.
It's like open space. It's like I'm now looking out at the end of
that tunnel and there's no floor, no nothing, you know, to step
onto. I'm just out there with the tunnel behind me
Was there any color?
No. I have no color. It's non-color. It's like air. It's like if
the sky was blue, but it isn't specifically blue, just colorless.
And, a lot of the NDEers have a being they speak to. Well, I had
a being, but I didn't see anybody because if there was anything
that might be a figure, it would have been standing above and behind
me. Because that is where the voice seemed to come from.
I have a feeling of this presence that knows me very, very well,
and this makes me uptight a little bit. Then I realize that the
presence has no judgment on me. It's just a very friendly feeling,
very warm, very loving, knows everything about me, and it doesn't
matter. It's not passing on it. And it says, "This is
the line. Now if you go on from here, you're going to be dead. If
you turn back, you can be alive. You can take five incarnations
in this one body. It's strong enough. Do you want to take them?"
I'm curious now. I started to ask questions. It's like I want to
know what's death and all this stuff. I hadn't studied any metaphysics
before then. So it is interesting that the stuff that came back
to me is some of the answers that I have since learned about or
So I ask, "What is Death?" "It's a boundary."
"What's a person? Who am I? Am I going to be alive, and if,
how am I going to be alive?" So, then I got this vision of
a spider web. But it is not a spider web like a flat drawing, because
all of the threads go in all directions, and it's alive! A spider
can feel any motion along it's web. The web of the universe is like
that. But, it's alive all of the time. It's singing. It's like a
"hum," or a strum, on the wires, and every point on it
can feel everything going on everywhere else.
And I said, "What's the individual? Who am I, if I'm just
a point on this web? What's different about me?" "It's
what you make it." Every being is a juncture of the
web. It's the crossing point of two lines, like an intersection
point. If you do something with yourself, if you make something
of yourself, you become perhaps a bead, perhaps a jewel, a diamond
at your juncture. You can make it as beautiful or complicated as
you want. If you really blow it, if you don't do anything, you don't
cease to exist. You're still there. But you're just a juncture.
And it was great!
So then the question comes back again, "So are you going
to go on, or do you want to go back? You've got enough strength
to do more." I said, "Well, did I do what I was
supposed to do for this life time?" It said, "Yeah.
If that's all you want to do. You just paid off a lot of bad stuff"
You paid off stuff? That's what it said?
Yeah yeah. It said everything up until now has just been karma,
just been pain, you know, just been bad stuff, just been paying
it back, paying it back, nothing new. "You can do something
new. Go do something. Do you want to stay, you want to stay?"
I said, "OK. Yes, I guess I'll stay." I survived all
of this. Why not find out what happens next. That was just about
it. Its almost like then, OK kid, and shot me back down the tunnel.
And then I kind of landed in my body is what it felt like. I'm out
there, and OK, started thinking about what the experience was.
I never knew whom I spoke to. But, it's a voice that I hear. I
could recognize the voice. I've had it other times also.
Is it telepathic?
It has a sound. But I have at times played with myself trying to
figure out if it is male or female, and I cannot put a gender to
it. I sometimes wonder if it is my own voice, and does not seem
to be my own voice.
Oh yeah, and that's the part when I'm still doing on the web, and
all of that stuff, I am asking the questions, you know. I felt overwhelmingly
that, except for the fact that I'd paid off so much karma, I had
wasted most of my energies in my lifetime up until that point, because
I was riveted and focused entirely on the wrong thing. My mother
had me worried about my grades in school, and who was I, and trying
to be illustrious, and all of this kind of stuff, be a success,
dah dah dah, very much so. She was trying to bring me up to be this
hoo-ha golden girl, or some kind of thing, and I didn't want to
do her program. But, I didn't know what I did want to do. I was
living most of my life simply going against what she wanted, you
know, fighting what ever she put on me, not knowing what I wanted
And this voice was telling me, yeah this was all wrong, but it
wasn't wrong. You didn't know any better. You weren't focused on
the right thing. What is important is relationships, Love. Love
is the thing that is important, whatever you love, from your pet
mouse to your pet cat, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your teachers,
what ever you can love. Don't ever do anything for fear, because
you fear something. Do it always for love. Go towards things. Don't
go away from them. Don't quit things and go away or get rid of them.
Go towards something else that's better.
That's one thing that comes back to me in different forms, and
it is a lesson that I keep repeatedly learning in different scenes.
I have to remember that, because every so often you fall off the
beam. You lose your balance. You go some place else, or somebody
else's program takes over. Your boss wants you to take over the
world, right? Prove to me how good you are. All of this stuff, and
you can kick right back into that old pattern.
When you mentioned that the voice said that,
when you asked what death was, you said death was a boundary. Was
it a boundary that you create? Is that what death is, or is there
a boundary somewhere, an actual physical boundary, or spatial boundary,
or time boundary, or
In terms of my vision of it, the boundary was right there at the
end of the tunnel, if I continued past that end, or went back. The
feeling is not a spatial boundary. It's a decision you make as to
perhaps just where you put your mind, in which direction. It's like
you decide to be there. You decide to be internalized for a day,
or externalized. What are you dealing with, your self, your inner
self, or you want to be out here doing things physical and producing
effects? Where are you putting your effects? So if you are dead,
you are working internalized. You're working on the interior you,
and you're not projecting a physical being into a world that interacts
with other persons with bodies.
So, death as a boundary, and the boundary
It's a matter of direction, I think.
OK. That's good!
When you said, the being said do things out
of love, not fear, that your motivation should be love, gravitating
towards something, rather than being pushed away
Well, if you have a decision to make, ask yourself why would you
take this course of action or another course, and the minute you
hear yourself with, I have to do this because I'm afraid this or
that is going to happen, that nullifies that decision. Don't do
it for that reason. Just absolutely throw that out. You find yourself
saying something, well, I got to do this because it will do this
for somebody, or it will produce this and such effect, and make
this better, that's a reason to go ahead and do it.
On the web, did you see any of the beads
I saw only the one that pertained to me, and in various forms as
to what the potential might be.
Could you describe it?
Yeah. I was shown just like a solidified bead, and growing, and
then developing facets.
What does it look like? Was it clear?
Clear. Yeah. It would have been like a crystal. It grew in size.
As to show the potential, it got bigger, and I just stopped at a
certain point, saying, "Yeah, I got the idea." We don't
have to play it out.
You describe it as absolutely clear. Was
it cylindrical, or round?
Round. Round with facets. It's like if you saw a round diamond,
it would be like that, except that the top face of it would be all
the way around. You wouldn't have that point on the bottom.
Got it. I understand. The bead being was
clear. Did you sense intelligence, or anything emanating?
It was just a description, or an idea of myself as I could be.
One of the things that I went through one time, when the
person asked me, "what?" Its kind of the idea of
what color is your parachute, this one is. What color is your universe?
The biggest room you could imagine, what color would it be? Use
your favorite colors. Well, my favorite color is like opalescent.
I want like the whole rainbow up there, but not solidly defined,
those kinds of colors. So the bead was doing the same, but only
as like a diamond will flash colors, rather than be misty.
The web, you said the web hummed, made a
sound. Was the web an actual thread, or was it like a vibration,
a string vibration
Guitar strings is what I think of. It's like anything that touches
it, it will hum along its length, and it will pick up tones. It
will start music and other things by affecting it. I can't remember
what the word is, but you know, you can start another set of strings
vibrating across a room by resonating. Right? It resonates. Some
musicians will hear the sound. It's the sound of the universe. It's
a background sound. Your scientists, I believe, describe it as the
residual sound from the Big Bang that created the universe. And
I have heard it in meditation, and not have had explained it that
way, but I heard it one-way or the other. At one time, I wore a
bearskin. I went into meditation with it, and I heard it while I
wore this bearskin. The closest you can come to that sound is, if
you ever sit it the forest, and you can hear the wind through the
forest. There is an undertone that's a steady note
Right. It's a drone, a low
Yeah, a low drone. Especially if you have a lot of conifers there,
it makes a deeper sound then a deciduous forest, where you hear
the rustle of the leaves a lot. But that tone is always there. If
you've been to some of the northern countries like Finland or Sweden,
you can hear the undertone from the pack ice on the North Pole coming
through the ground at you all the time. If you think about it, you
can pick it up. A lot of people don't think about it. But if you
are interested, it is always there. You can always hear it. And
that's always everywhere, but there are so many overlays.
Very interesting. I did want to ask you,
prior to this experience, had you had any mystical, spiritual, or
psychic experiences prior to having the NDE?
On several occasions I had dreams that I remember, and I have had
an ability to ask somebody, I don't know whom, for a projection
into the future about what my life would be up to whatever date
I choose, like the next seven years, the next five years.
Was that prior to this experience also?
I had it as a child. When I was 10 years old I really became aware
of it because I was coming to America, which I didn't know what
it looked like. I had spent a lot of time on the deck of the ship
that was bringing me here. Which would put you into a meditational
state a lot, because you got nothing but wind, water, and sunshine.
I couldn't go below decks because I would get sick. So I had to
stay up on top for ten days, and I asked for a projection of where
I would be and what America was like. Well, I had no images of what
America was like. But what I got at that time was a map, a US map,
and kind of a few pinpoints of where I would be at different times.
And it took me to just about let's see, I was 22? So,
I got about 14 years, and at that point I asked for another projection.
But, up until that point, I didn't see anything else, because I
stopped. I said that's enough. It was interesting because I forgot
about it. And I remembered as I hit some of those points that had
been pointed out to me. Bingo! Here I am. That's what they showed
You said you were unaware, unpracticed in
metaphysics prior to this experience
Yeah. I didn't know the word. I didn't know anything about it.
What had happened, that possibly might have anything to do with
it is that my husband had, his father had a book lying around that
nobody claimed to have read in the household. And I picked it up
and I read it out of pure boredom. It happened to be Alexander David
Was it after the experience, or before?
It would have preceded it by about 6 months. It is interesting,
yes. It seemed to have opened some kind of a door with me. But at
the same time I don't see any relationship between anything I read
in that book, cause I reread it later, and the experience itself,
because there were no images of that sort there.
Right. No, I understand. I had something
similar happen. I was more into wanting to know where everything
came from when I was fourteen. I was reading African Genesis. And
maybe cause I had opened up "wanting to know" I had, probably,
at that time
Yeah, when I really opened up was actually after I divorced him
and came to this country. I was in Las Vegas and I sat down in bed
one day, and I said, "I want to know. I don't care what the
truth is, whether it's pleasant or unpleasant, I want to know what
it is. I'm tired of being lied to." And then I went on my search,
and I was open to being told anything by anybody. Disaster happens
and then you know you don't know anything about anything and you
open yourself up.
Right Well, I know for a fact that of
the experiences that I had when I was younger was because I had
a deep longing to know inside of me. I didn't know where the information
was going to come from, and then it came unexpectedly and unprepared.
I don't think you are ever prepared for an NDE.
No. It's something that you're glad it happened, and you wish it
would happen to everybody. But then you realize what you're wishing
on them is that they almost die. Well and that was it. I was
supposed to be terminal and all this stuff. I knew that I wasn't
going to die, though, even when they told me. So, in a sense the
NDE was superfluous in convincing me to live.
In this experience was there any experience
of light that you recall?
Yeah, the tunnel itself was. The walls were not light, but there
was light at the end of it. It was like I was headed for that light.
Everything around me was in a whirl. There was no focal point there
for me to want to go to. I had to head to the light.
Was the tunnel dark?
No, like grayish, like ice and clouds and stuff.
When you came to the end of the tunnel, was
Yeah. There was like bright daylight out there
Was it clear?
But there was no color, nothing that characterized anything.
Was it clear light, or just clear nothing?
Can you think or, how would you describe it?
It was light in terms of daylight. There was no darkness and there
was no mistiness either. Everything was bright, but there was nothing
for it to be bright at. There was nothing for it to reflect. There
were no things to look at.
So, it was light, but because you couldn't
see any objects or colors, per se, you didn't have anything to relate
the lightness to
Yeah. Right. You know. There is nothing contrasty out there.
Right. There is no contrast. Got it.
So, when you saw the string, what color was the string? Or, was
Yeah. I'm thinking, it would be brightnesses, like maybe beams
of light, except they seemed to have physicality in that it would
be texture if I reached out and touched them.
You could feel it essentially
Except I didn't try to. I was listening to the sound of it. But,
for it to make a sound, I keep thinking of it as a guitar string.
Somebody twanged it and everything was resonating.
Would you think of it like a string of energy,
or a like a string like a guitar string, like a gut string? Or would
you think or like
My closest would be electricity really. It was alive and actually
could zap you if you touched it wrong.
That's why I was curious. That's why I was
trying to get you to describe in as many ways as possible to allude
to the experience.
Well it is. It's like calling it a spider web is adequate as a
The reason I was asking you so many questions
is because the second experience that I had was extremely visual.
And the being that I saw was clear. It was a crystal egg.
was how I described it in 1969. And it was in light, pure, absolutely
pure, I would say white, but it was clear light. It was totally
clear. That's why I am trying to
What is a flat color by comparison?
Right. Exactly. That's why I was trying to
get you to explain. But, when I went into the light the light was
perfectly clear, and the being in the light was perfectly clear.
But, the being that I saw, that's what reminds me of the crystals
or the beads that you were talking about, the being that I saw,
which was very visual, it was egg shaped. And it didn't have facets.
It was just perfectly smooth. Yet, it was more alive than anything
that I had ever seen. I remember looking into it And somebody
asked me once what color is it? And I thought about, and said, "Well,
it's all colors." Cause when like you look in, like when you
look like at a soap bubble, you know how those colors are there,
like on the surface, cause when you look in, it is much more in
depth. And there is no way to describe those colors in earthly terms.
You're talking about opalescence. This was opalescent, but it was
clear opalescent. It was like all of the rainbow, but perfectly
clear, and there is like no way to describe it. And also when I
remember the being, I always remember the being as sky blue in color
against the white of the light, although there is no way to actually
describe it cause the light was clear and the being was clear. So
when I remember it, I remember it as very light sky blue.
I had a blue being appear one time in a trailer that I lived in
Vegas. And that was very startling because, I had never had an explanation
What did it look like?
because the blue was so intense and so beautiful. And I just
jumped. I jumped back, and tried to address it, and wait to see
what it would say. It never said anything. There was nothing ever
clarified about it. It struck me as a feminine vibration, was shorter
than me, about 5 foot six. And it was just, I kept thinking, "this
has got to be Mary blue." Right? It was a beautiful blue. All
that ever happened.
Was it just a color?
Well, it had shape. If you had a Madonna statue, it would have
had that shape. But there was no more detail than just the outline.
See, that's the thing. But, it was alive. It moved.
See, also when you are talking about the
web, I remember one time when I was in my twenties in Oregon, I
spent a lot of time pretty much introspective, and I used to I
have visions before I go to sleep at night. I have these absolutely
clear pictures. They are clearer than anything that I can see with
my eyes. They can be anything. And this might have been one of those
times. But I remember having a vision of a network of light, lights,
but it was like strings. And it was like that, where it had intersections,
but they were light, but like against the dark blue of the night
sky. There was a network of light. It was light, like strings of
light all over. I wrote it down. If I go back through my writings
I could say, cause I was writing what I was seeing.
know sometimes, something like that I think I might have told
you this one time I'm trying to remember because I haven't
used this term for a few months now. I'm a station in the light
network. Haven't I ever said that to you before? Yeah. That was
kind of told to me, like inside, like when I was being reflective
and open. It was like, what's my function? You're a station in the
light network. It's that same thing. It's that web. There is communication
all through the network. Is that what you had?
I'm sure what you experienced was much more
vivid and detailed. Yeah. I've sensed that before
Yeah. Why would it be more vivid? It might be the same thing. You
It probably is. Like, I try to write down
when I have things so I remember. Some things I haven't written
down. So now, that's why I'm doing this, so anyone who has had very
vivid life-transforming experiences like this, I think by sharing
this we all grow and learn.
Yeah. This is one reason I'm doing this is probably somebody I
never even will meet may hear it and it will resonate with them,
something that happened to them
Because a lot of times we've repressed things
that we've experienced
Well, I didn't talk about this until, Lord Well, see this
happened in 61, and I don't think I told anyone until about 85.
It so happened that there were some people that I was working with,
and we decided to talk about NDEs, and a couple of them had one,
and it surprised me. So, I told them about mine, too, but not very
much in detail.
Oh, the other thing that I wanted to ask
you about Since that experience, how has your life changed,
or how do you view your life now? How has that experience affected
you? In your own words
I just let go of all these compulsions of mine. I was very compulsive.
I was very competitive all the time. Everything was always a contest.
You know. I couldn't live with myself. I couldn't relax. And ever
since that NDE I realized that all of that stuff really has nothing
to do with it. I was still pretty much a frantic person. I was still
scattered for a while while I was looking for myself. But, I don't
have a compulsion to fulfill other's expectations. And it feels
really like a BIG relief. I can enjoy things. I couldn't before.
Everything was a problem. From the word "go", everything
was a problem to be solved. I don't feel like I have to solve anything
Have you since that experience had an increase
in mystical or any type of phenomenal experiences?
I don't know that there has been an increase. I welcome them. I
remember them. That's what life really is all about. See? I'm more
on the metaphysical side all the time than on the physical. And
I feel a little disturbed when I'm forced to be mundane. I don't
enjoy it, but I'll do it.
Does it feel likes it is work to be mundane,
like a discipline to function?
No. It's kind of like the price you have to pay.
Oh, that's interesting.
You don't get to play this if you just keep yourself in the physical.
Don't let the body drop. You got to be here to experience these
things. Got to keep it alive, keep it healthy.
I used to always say, because I had a hard
time staying grounded, because I spent a lot of time inside, that
the reason that I worked in a regular life was that was my yoga,
my discipline. That kept me grounded, so I could internally
Well, actually, you're right, you know, because it takes discipline
to do it. While you're trying to have all this good time, supper
has to be made. It keeps bringing you right back.